'I wasn't in my mind,' Raymond told psychiatrist months after shooting 4 people

The psychiatrist who examined Matthew Raymond months after he shot and killed four people in Fredericton testified Friday it's possible Raymond was not criminally responsible, but he didn't have enough information.

Dr. Scott Woodside said Raymond was reluctant during the assessment to tell him more about why he shot the two police officers and two civilians or what symptoms he was feeling the morning of the shootings.

As a result, Woodside, a witness for the defence, said he couldn't draw a direct link between Raymond's mental illness and criminal responsibility.

Raymond, 50, has admitted to killing Donnie Robichaud and Bobbie Lee Wright from his apartment at 237 Brookside Dr., then Fredericton constables Sara Burns and Robb Costello when they responded to calls of shots fired on Aug. 10, 2018.

Raymond has pleaded not guilty, and his defence team is arguing he was not criminally responsible for the shooting on account of mental illness.

Raymond told Woodside during the assessment that he didn't remember much from that morning, except that "It wasn't really him, he didn't feel in control of himself."

"No, it wasn't me, I wasn't in my mind," the doctor quoted Raymond as saying. At the same time, Raymond denied having a mental illness and any psychotic symptoms, Woodside said.

Woodside said he has no doubt Raymond had a mental illness in the "years, months and days" before the shooting. He said Raymond was hearing thumping on the walls, felt the police were monitoring him, and thought there was an imminent threat from people who were out to harm him, which is why he barricaded his doors.

On cross-examination, Woodside testified Raymond told him that the people who were shot were not people he'd previously been concerned about conspiring against him or coming into his apartment.

"He did tell me there was no prior connection to those individuals," Woodside said.

Woodside was testifying in the fifth week of Raymond's criminal trial. He was the second psychiatrist to testify, but the first to be able to speak about criminal responsibility.

Did he know what he was doing was wrong?

The Crown and defence have agreed Raymond had a mental illness at the time of the shooting.

The agreement means that to get a not-guilty verdict, the defence must prove to the jury, on a balance of probabilities, that Raymond's mental illness either stopped him from knowing the nature and consequences of his actions, or knowing what he was doing was wrong.

In his testimony, Woodside said Raymond likely knew that shooting a gun would harm people, so he appreciated the nature and consequences of his actions. But Woodside couldn't conclude whether Raymond knew what he was doing was wrong.

Raymond told him that a week before the shooting, he would have known it was "morally and legally "wrong to shoot somebody, Woodside said, but he wasn't willing to provide any kind of detailed account of what he was thinking at the time.

Woodside said he believed there was more that Raymond was not sharing with him, because he said repeatedly "it will all come out in court."

The final paragraph of Woodside's report, he says "I would reconsider my opinion" if able to get more information from Raymond about that morning.

Woodside also said there's "no evidence" that Raymond is faking his illness, and there was no doubt he had a mental illness. Woodside diagnosed him with delusional disorder.

"One of the cruellest parts of this illness is that it robs you of knowing that you are unwell," Woodside said.

This is why when people come to him and say "I was really ill doctor," alarm bells go off.

But people with delusions have minimal insight into their illness.

'Guarded' and 'paranoid' during interviews

In his assessment of criminal responsibility, Woodside said he interviewed Raymond for about two hours over the phone in November 2018. He also met with him for six hours in January 2019 and on Feb. 5, 2019 for an additional hour.

Woodside said that in the interviews Raymond was "guarded" and "paranoid."

Woodside said Raymond's family said he experienced a change in 2017, continuing to 2018. He became preoccupied with political issues, beginning with a law pertaining to Muslim people, which he protested in Fredericton in June 2017.

Raymond also became paranoid about people using the word Muslim, and "became convinced that the world was going to end," Woodside said.

Raymond became religiously preoccupied, Woodside said. He purchased weapons. He began stockpiling food and water for what he saw the coming end of the world.

He began speaking more about conspiracies involving the police that they were watching him, Woodside said.

Raymond had concerns about people in his building speaking to him and worried people entered his apartment and moved things around.

Woodside said Raymond was concerned that someone was going to harm him but that concern was "ill defined."

Raymond believed he had an ability to identify demons based on their pictures, Woodside said. His writings are filled with references to mathematical computations and numbers that have special meaning, such as the number 666.

Woodside testified Raymond "downplayed" the demon beliefs when he spoke to him and said he didn't remember writing "hoax" or "serpent" on newspapers found on his bed after the shooting.

He also believed people were going to "probably hurt him," which is why he barricaded the door before the shooting, Woodside said.

In the interview, Woodside asked Raymond whether he was hearing voices commanding him to acting this way. He said no. Woodside also asked him whether he thought people were going to kill him, and said no.

"But he also hesitated quite frequently," Woodside said. "My opinion was Mr. Raymond did recall more than he was willing to tell me at that time," he said. But for whatever reason, he wasn't sharing.

Defence lawyer Nathan Gorham asked Woodside a hypothetical question: If the jury concluded that it is likely that Raymond believed that he was under siege by demons, and that the people he saw outside his window were serpents, how would that affect his opinion on criminal responsibility?

"In my view, that would more clearly support a finding of not criminally responsible due to mental disorder," Woodside said.

Differing diagnoses 'largely academic'

Dr. Ralph Holly previously testified he diagnosed Raymond with schizophrenia.

But Woodside diagnosed Raymond with delusional disorder. The main difference between the two is that people with delusional disorder are able to hide their delusions more easily and control when they can share them, he said. It also usually sets in later in life.

The difference between the two in this criminal trial is "largely academic," Woodside said, as they both can cause delusions and psychosis.

"Both are equally capable" of forming the basis of a defence of not criminally responsible, he said.

Raymond has been on mandatory medication for months and is continuing to receive anti-psychotic medication injections as the trial goes on. He mostly sits quietly in the prisoner's box, sometimes raising his hand to get his lawyers' attention. He became emotional during his sister's testimony, and when graphic images of the victims were shown.