Music as a Weapon of War

When did you discover that your music was being used in this way?

Well, the first I got any hint of it was when the Iraq war started. There was a piece in the BBC about the fact that music was being used on the battlefield when Iraqi prisoners were detained – that PSYOPs [psychological operations] people were using music to keep people awake and disorient them. And, to my amazement, I heard that Sesame Street music was included in the mix.

That was several years ago. And then maybe three years ago or so, the word came out that music was being used to interrogate detainees at Guantanamo and other places where detention was occurring. Again, it’s never been absolutely confirmed what specific songs were used, but we’ve heard that Sesame Street songs were part of the mix.

How did you feel when you found out?

I have to say, it was a mixture of things. I’m certainly against anything that our country does that is openly in violation of the Geneva Convention and all those sorts of things, because it could be done back to us. So that was my first reaction.

I don’t like torture of any kind. Obviously, interrogation can sometimes be necessary, but the idea that my music would be used gave me a mixture of emotions. I was furious, on one level, and, I have to say, bemused on another. It just seemed insane. And, of course, it hurt my feelings a little bit, too, that my songs were bad enough that anyone thought they’d be useful in this way.

And because I’ve done a great deal of satire in my life – I was part of the National Lampoon when it began – I did see some very dark humor in the idea that having to listen to Elmo or something like that could get someone to talk. It occurred to me, since I wrote a song called “Put Down the Duckie” that’s been quite a hit on Sesame Street over the years, that that might actually be useful in getting an Iraqi to quit the Ba’ath Party [laugh].

So, I had both humor and disgust at the same time – an odd mixture.

The really important point is the way the prisoners were treated. And obviously they didn’t ask my permission to use my music, and I don’t like that they did. But if they used some other music, the effect would be the same.

You were the subject of the documentary Songs of War , which followed you as you explored how music could be used in this way. How did this come about?

Well, a friend of mine named Tristan Chytroschek from Germany called me and said that he had heard that I was one of the people whose music had been used and that I wasn’t happy that it had been, and he was curious whether, if they wanted to document a search – not just for how it happened, but how music is used in propaganda and warfare and interrogation and all those things – would I be interested in working with him on a documentary? And I said, “Gee, it never occurred to me I would be asked to do something like that. It would be very interesting.” And it certainly was. It was a wild journey.

Who did you speak to?

We spoke to lawyers, activists … We even spoke to a kid who had been a prison guard at Guantanamo, and – this is one of the things that really astounded me as we did our search – he had been part of a unit that was trained to do something entirely different, so he had no security training. And you can imagine that it would be difficult to interrogate properly or to behave properly for some of those kids down there.

We talked to some of the other people whose music had been used. Drowning Pool is a really hard heavy-metal rock group, and I expected not to like them because they had proclaimed that they thought it was great that their music had been used in interrogation. But when I met them, I was quite impressed by how thoughtful they were. Their big mission was to give moral support to the marines and folks who were being sent over to fight, and whatever your politics are, you want to support those folks. So I came away with a mixed message there.

I also talked to Moazzem Begg, who had been detained. That was a chilling discussion. I don’t take everything he said at face value, but there seems little question that he was mistreated, and his story – to the degree that you accept it – is shocking.

One of the most interesting parts was talking to Mike Richards, who trained U.S. military people to withstand torture, in case they were captured. He said a lot of the techniques we taught our troops to withstand are now being used in interrogation.

His view was that that kind of interrogation doesn’t really work because it’s so unpleasant that you’ll say anything to get it to stop. He says interrogation works better when you – ethically or not – win the person’s cooperation somehow, in more carroty ways than stick ways.

And yes, you can be tough, you can be threatening, but physical pain doesn’t really work, he feels. I still feel that music might be better than physical torture, if you had to choose. But Mike actually subjected me – they actually put me into a cell in the dark and made me listen to my own music for a long time at a very high volume. And boy, I was glad when I got out of there.

What was that like?

At first, it was very disorienting and unpleasant. I knew that I could stop it, so it wasn’t the same as actually being imprisoned, but Mike was a brilliant psychological warfare guy – he had all the training – and he put enough doubt in my mind. You begin to lose your sanity. I was quite shaken by it, honestly. Though I couldn’t wait to go and tell all my friends about it either [laugh].

Does it bother you that it’s your music being used by your government in this particular way?

Symbolically, yes. Yes, they have no right to do it. I’ve made a lot of jokes about how ASCAP and BMI collect royalties for composers when their music is used in cabarets or on television, so shouldn’t we get royalties when our music is used for torture, as well? But that was a joke [laugh].

Again, the really important point, to me, is that we should use tough methods of interrogation if we have to, but they shouldn’t go over the line into torture unless we expect other people to torture our prisoners, too, and that’s what the whole Geneva Convention is about. And we’re fighting to keep our country with the values that it’s built on. We can’t just start violating them and expect that we’re going to stay pure.

So, my problem is with the use of techniques like this, period, and not with whether they really used my music.

In fact, the fact that they did gives me a chance to talk about this, and that, in a way, makes me glad, because I don’t want to see us use illegal techniques in warfare. And nobody would have ever asked me what I thought if this hadn’t happened.

At the end of it, what do you feel that you learned from this journey?

Well, I began to understand how music could be used. What was really unpleasant even in my little moment in the cell there was just realizing how hard it is to think. You lose yourself. You lose your orientation.

Now, I know some people say this is even worse than other kinds of torture. I don’t buy that. I’m glad I didn’t get beaten up while I was sitting there listening to this stuff [laugh].

Did it make a difference what music was being played?

I actually found that when they played Drowning Pool that I liked that better than listening to my own music [laugh], because it had a beat, and I kind of liked listening to it. Whereas, Elmo’s voice – now, I love Elmo, so don’t quote this out of context [laugh] – but he can be kind of screechy if you have to listen to him for a couple hours singing the same thing over and over again with volume that’s almost at the level of pain.

And the idea that you can’t think … I mean, if you feel that way after half an hour, imagine how you’d feel after hours and hours of that in a confined space or in the dark, and having that happen day after day. I can see how that could be incredibly destructive.

Once you lose your own centeredness – once you become disoriented, and will do anything to get something to stop – it can be very effective. But, if you want it to stop too much, then you’ll basically do anything you can to get it to stop, including agreeing with whatever they tell you they want you to agree with. At which point, what is the information you get worth?

Again, I’m not an expert on interrogation – I’m just telling you what I was told. I just don’t like the idea that our country detained people, often for years, without being sure what they were guilty of – that people just got swept up, and that they were treated this way on the off chance that they would have something to say.

Have you tried to make the U.S. military stop using your music in this way?

No, I haven’t. I mean, I’ve commented on it. I know it’s sort of an odd point of view, but the fact that my music got involved gives me a chance to make a political statement.

And also, as I say, because I have this twisted sense of humor, I do see a sort of bittersweet humor in the fact that a song that I would write to teach someone how to use their imagination would end up being used to get someone to confess to something they might have done … It’s pretty ironic.

Photo courtesy of Reuters.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.